杏吧原创

Kim Hellemans is a neuroscience professor at 杏吧原创, chair of the department and the winner of multiple awards for teaching and student support. Her research focuses on mental health, stress and addiction.

Jim Davies is a cognitive science professor, director of the university鈥檚 Science of Imagination Laboratory and the author of two books, most recently .

Together, Hellemans and Davies host an award-winning podcast, 鈥�,鈥� which explores cognitive and brain science, covering subjects such as sleep, climate change psychology and emotional expression. They鈥檝e been recording it from separate locations for a few months, so we interviewed them individually and stitched together their conversation.

Jim: I first heard about COVID-19 in late 2019 and figured it was nothing. That was fairly rational at the time. Different diseases pop up now and again and they鈥檙e usually nothing to worry about. I started thinking it was a real problem in early 2020 when it was spreading around the world and was particularly virulent and people were dying.

Kim: I follow a lot of medical and science people on Twitter and started seeing a lot coming out of China in January. It was inevitable that information would trickle out. Right before Reading Week in February, I remember telling a student, 鈥淲e鈥檒l see how long we鈥檙e going to be back for after the break.鈥� It happened so quickly. We went from 鈥淚t鈥檚 far away in China鈥� to 鈥淟ook at what鈥檚 happening in Italy鈥� to the first cases in the U.S. There鈥檚 no way it could be in the U.S. and not in Canada.

Jim: I was in Toronto just as everything was shutting down. Hour by hour things were changing. The streets were emptying and we were figuring out how to react. My wife and I were going to see the musical Come From Away and it was cancelled two hours beforehand. Then I was on TVO鈥檚 鈥淭he Agenda with Steve Paikin,鈥� the last studio interview they filmed. We flew back to Ottawa on a nearly empty plane and shut ourselves in.

Kim: Two or three days before the university shut down I was in a departmental chairs and directors meeting devoted to COVID-19. There was a big event coming up on campus and we weren鈥檛 sure if it was going to go ahead. My heart was pounding. I was flooded with adrenaline and I was scared. 鈥淎ll I want to do is go home,鈥� I was thinking. 鈥淚 want to pack up my stuff, get my kids from school and go home.鈥� There was so much we still didn鈥檛 know. It felt like the virus was everywhere and nowhere at the same time, so that was my emotional fear-driven response.

Jim: I have an intellectual interest in many facets of our world, and I think about things scientifically to try to understand them. That informs the practical decisions I make with respect to, you know, how much I stay in the house or how often I shop. Science informs my opinions and behaviours, and I try to keep my selfish urges at bay and have everything be determined by my moral compass.

Kim: Seven years ago, when I was pregnant with my second child, my husband and I made the mistake of watching the movie Contagion. Since then I have had an acute fear of pandemics. I鈥檓 very conscious of illness and am anxious when my kids get sick. As 杏吧原创 shut down, I was combing mainstream media and social media for any information related to COVID-19. I was looking at the preprints of journal articles coming out of China, trying to learn as much as I could. That soothed me. When I鈥檓 panicking and fearful, I always turn to science. It鈥檚 a powerful coping mechanism. I turn to rational information to try to understand what I can control. I can鈥檛 control the spread of this virus. I can鈥檛 control other people鈥檚 behaviour. But I can try to control mine.

Jim: I鈥檓 immunocompromised, so I wash my hands a lot and try to wear a mask any time I go outside. I believe in modelling good behaviour. The more people wear masks outside, the more social proof it establishes and encourages 鈥� the same way that fashion works. I also don鈥檛 want to have to think about it. I know how habit works. When something becomes a habit, it becomes the default position. You just do it. Like having a cup of coffee in the morning. It鈥檚 not like people decide to have coffee every morning. Even if they鈥檙e thinking about something else, the coffee will get made and consumed.

Kim: The neural basis of routine is deep-brain basal ganglia. If something is compelling enough to override your routine, it鈥檚 going to signal to your prefrontal cortex, which is then going to signal down to your basal ganglia to put a stop to that routine and correct course. Let鈥檚 say you鈥檙e driving along a highway that you鈥檙e on regularly and you kind of tune out. But all of sudden you see ambulance lights in the distance. You鈥檒l put your foot on the brakes. That鈥檚 kind of what happens on a daily basis. Routines and habits are good and they鈥檙e soothing. I have an exercise routine, a work routine, a home routine. But you need to have the flexibility to get out of those and adapt to the current scenario.

Jim: The function of habit in the brain is to make space for your conscious thought, your cognitive processing, your goal-directed behaviour. You can really only think about one thing at a time. But because you need to do more than one thing at a time 鈥� like walk and breathe and talk 鈥� there鈥檚 this habit system that runs those processes and controls your body when your cognitive system is occupied with other things. The problem is if you鈥檝e got a bad habit, you can鈥檛 rely on your cognitive system to always prevent you from engaging in it, because at some point you鈥檙e going to be distracted and the habits will take over. So curating your habits and trying to replace the bad ones and encourage the good ones is necessary for good behaviour. Even without the pandemic, our lives are constantly changing and you have to end old habits. Your body tries to respond to the environment the best way it can. The reason we develop bad habits is because we have some natural instincts that aren鈥檛 great in our modern-day environment. That鈥檚 why eating M&Ms every day is an easy habit to have because sugar has been, for the vast majority of human existence, extremely rare. Developing a habit of eating sugar if you could was a great idea. Modern Canada is not suffering from caloric restriction, yet we鈥檙e still energy saving creatures.

Kim: The society we live in today is very different from what it was in 1920 and 1820. It鈥檚 often massive events 鈥� industrialization, World War I, World War II, economic collapses 鈥� that shake us up. Society is being disrupted now on a massive scale and we鈥檙e altering our behaviours. I鈥檓 fascinated by the sociology of it. What are we changing that is never going to go back? Also, what is going to be disrupted for the better? When we think about teaching going online, for example, we鈥檙e also thinking about equity and how to support students from marginalized communities and students who struggle with certain modalities of learning. What we鈥檙e doing could actually benefit certain populations if we keep them front and centre. That might sound a little Pollyanna, but if we don鈥檛 consider positive outcomes we run the risk of becoming incredible cynics and succumbing to despair.

Jim: When you鈥檙e dealing with bad uncertainty 鈥� when you don鈥檛 know how bad something is going to be 鈥� that can cause anxiety. Sometimes, in psychology experiments, people prefer to get a more intense electric shock then an unknown amount of electric shock, even if the intensity would likely be lower. That indicates there鈥檚 a value to certainty. Also, uncertainty keeps our minds thinking about things and increases our emotional response. In artistic works and in religion, where there are mysterious things that are hard to understand, your mind tends to obsess over them, in either a good or a bad way. An ambiguous ending can be a beautiful thing and your mind won鈥檛 let it go. If the ending is a little too wrapped up, it鈥檚 satisfying in the moment but your mind tends to forget it because there鈥檚 nothing really there to figure out. So uncertainty generally causes your cognitive system to think about things over and over again. If it鈥檚 a fearful uncertainty, you鈥檙e going to be re-experiencing negative emotions, because your mind is constantly returning to those ideas, and that can border depression.

Kim: One of the best mechanisms to stave off fear and anxious worry is to focus on today, on what鈥檚 happening today. We have this wonderful prefrontal cortex that allows us to time travel: it allows us to think about the past in order to plan for the future. Some say this is the root of our intelligence because our cognitive capabilities of planning for the future ensures our survival. But it may also be what is at the seat of a lot of mental health disorders, because when you think about rumination and worrying, it鈥檚 about lamenting the past and worrying about the future. So the best way to keep the prefrontal cortex in check is mindfulness 鈥� focusing on the present day, the real, the here and now. There鈥檚 also the concept of 鈥済rounding,鈥� of thinking about what you can control. You can control how often you wash your hands and you can try to maintain physical distance. Your reaction to things that you hear about? You can鈥檛 control that. Another tip I鈥檝e heard from psychologist friends is that if you鈥檙e susceptible to worry and rumination on the uncertainty of tomorrow, then spend 15 minutes every day thinking about or writing down all your fears and concerns. Then that鈥檚 it: 15 minutes and you鈥檙e done. You鈥檙e kind of relieved of your worries.

Jim: There鈥檚 a belief out there that in hard times people get really selfish and start turning on each other. But under conditions where people feel that we鈥檙e all in this together, the opposite happens. You get a remarkable kind of community building. Sometimes people look back at a food shortage or a power outage or a natural disaster, such as a flood, and see that they were hard times but they also reminisce fondly about the incredible feeling of mutual brotherhood that arose. This pandemic has inspired that. You see people getting to know their neighbours a little bit more and helping each other.

Kim: We鈥檙e seeing the uptick in cases of COVID-19 because I think people are getting physical-distancing fatigue. As a species, we are social. Obviously, this exists on a continuum, but most people need some socializing. Are Zoom and other digital proxies enough to keep us going? I don鈥檛 think so. We need human interactions and we鈥檙e fighting against that inherent drive. I鈥檝e got two lovely kids, an amazing husband, and my parents and my sister and her family are also in my bubble. I have a very busy work life. All of this can maintain me, to a certain extent, whereas 20-year-olds who are unpartnered, who may be out of a job, who are not currently in school, they鈥檙e driven to hang out and be social. They鈥檙e going to bars. If I were 20 that鈥檚 where I would want to be too. I think we need to recognize that there is an inherent human desire to be social. This is the challenge. It鈥檚 not my problem to solve, and holy crap am I glad it鈥檚 not. But we need to figure out a way to live with this virus in the next few months, maybe years, that allows us to be in social environments.

Jim: It鈥檚 comforting to know that when things go bad, it鈥檚 not just every man for himself, but a lot of the changes we make as a species are situational. People want to get back to normal and will start giving one another the finger on the road again. I don鈥檛 think the feeling of community that鈥檚 engendered by this pandemic will last. The bubonic plague had enormous repercussions far beyond what we鈥檙e talking about now. It ended serfdom because so many people died and there weren鈥檛 enough serfs around and suddenly everyone鈥檚 work was valuable and everyone started getting paid. But that has nothing to do with the building of community. Disasters of the past changed society in a zillion ways, but their contribution to progress is very complex. This pandemic is bad, but it could be way worse. There鈥檚 an argument to be made that we would never have prepared for the one that鈥檚 going to be way worse if we hadn鈥檛 had one that was just a little bit scary first. Maybe we鈥檙e actually inoculating our psyches and our research priorities. We might actually start preparing for it.

Kim: We need to gather information. This is what me and my colleagues are doing. I do research on university populations and their mental health. We need to find out how they鈥檙e doing. Right now, we鈥檙e seeing if people who had pre-existing conditions are suffering the most, or is it everybody? We鈥檙e tracking them through time. We鈥檙e looking into whether we鈥檙e seeing increased rates of problematic substance use and, if so, how can we respond? How can we best provide that circle of care? If it鈥檚 virtual, what are the best virtual means to support students and people in general? We need to listen and put money towards this. Because mental health has not, historically, been a space that has been sufficiently funded. But maybe we鈥檙e going to hit a crisis point. And people like me need to keep advocating for mental health awareness and keep ensuring that the voices of people with lived experience are heard.

Jim: At a government level, this is a good time to push through legislation to increase support for mental health. My American friends are shocked because they think that Canadian medicine is socialized, but it doesn鈥檛 cover therapy or drugs. The two things that help with mental health are therapy and drugs. So, basically mental health is not covered by our so-called socialized medicine. I think that鈥檚 a real oversight.

Kim: The cure cannot be worse than the disease. The factors that are contributing to ill mental health right now are social distancing and the fears and concerns of people without jobs, without support, without access to services. We know when your mental health is suffering, you鈥檙e getting lots of proinflammatory factors coursing through your body, which makes you more susceptible to disease. There鈥檚 a reason why mental health and physical health are so interrelated. When somebody is not doing well mentally, they鈥檙e more at risk. We鈥檙e already recognizing that COVID-19 is disproportionately affecting people from marginalized populations. Mental health is a big piece of that. I feel the burden of responsibility for advocating for mental health among students, and also the burden of continuing to provide excellent educational opportunities for my students and buoying their journey, because they are more vulnerable and at-risk and they鈥檙e facing the worst economic prospects in generations. I also feel a certain amount of responsibility to be an advocate for science, period. There鈥檚 a vast amount of misinformation and politicized information out there, and I need to chime into the conversation about what鈥檚 fact and what鈥檚 evidence and what鈥檚 not.

Jim: During the pandemic people might be paying maybe more attention to science than they normally would, but I鈥檓 not convinced that faith in science has been declining. I haven鈥檛 seen good evidence for that. In Steven Pinker鈥檚 book Enlightenment Now he makes the case that in every single way that you can think of the world is getting better and has been over the last hundred years. Even fake news. People forget that fake news was way more rampant than it is now. The very fact that people even know what fact checking is, the fact that we even have the reflection to be able to even have a concept of fake news, suggests that society is smarter than it used to be. The only things that seem to be getting worse are social capital in the industrialized world and environmental destruction.

Kim: I had a moment in the summer when I realized that I probably wasn鈥檛 going to be on campus for a while. It made me sad. I value being around students and my colleagues and have grown to appreciate them more. I鈥檓 sure there are some people who are out living their best lives and couldn鈥檛 be happier to be away from others, but I am genuinely sad. Because of my role at 杏吧原创 and who I am, I鈥檓 usually all over campus, meeting with lots of different people, creating deep friendships and strong collegial relationships that I just can鈥檛 replace. Video calls are no substitute for coffee chats and bumping into one another in the tunnels. I鈥檓 hopeful, though. I know my emotions are going to be waxing and waning. The way I cope with that is I acknowledge it, I label it 鈥� here鈥檚 what I鈥檓 feeling 鈥� and I move through it.

Jim: The summer for me was not that much different because I usually just sit at home working all summer anyway. I wrote a book, my third, which is coming out in early 2021 and is going to be called Being the Person Your Dog Thinks You Are. It鈥檚 about the science of productivity, happiness and morality. If you want to be the best person you can be, how do you be maximally productive, maximally happy and a maximally good person? I didn鈥檛 change the book much after the pandemic started. In the part about productivity, I talk about research into differences between working at home and in an office. Studies show that at the office you鈥檙e more creative and at home you鈥檙e more productive. Being with people and having casual encounters helps you hash out ideas. But if what you鈥檙e doing is relatively cut and dried, then working from home is better. You know what you need to do and just need to do it.